Chapter 63: A Debate
The cave temple on Zun Shan had water springs in it, and was the type of location that only an insane general would lead an army against. Everyone agreed that it would make the perfect headquarters for the sect. Work began immediately to renovate and adapt it into a suitable location to hold a large group of people like the Dragon-Phoenix Sect.
It was not work that could be accomplished overnight. At the absolute minimum, it would be many months before the work was complete.
After everyone returned to the camp near the south bank of Chrysanthemum Lake, Sun Mai went into seclusion.
“The time has come,” he said. “When I come out, my scripture will be complete.”
Over the course of the years which had passed, Sun Mai had stopped referring to his scripture as a “classic scripture.” Although few people noticed that, Sunan noticed.
While Sun Mai went into seclusion, life went on as usual in the Dragon-Phoenix Sect. The Eyes of the Phoenix continued to scout and explore the Banyan Region, focusing mostly on the areas to the east of Zun Shan and the camp. At the same time, work continued on the cave temple.
One month after Sun Mai went into seclusion, Wang Tian brought a report back to Sunan that clues had turned up regarding the Shan people. Sunan was of a mind to go investigate himself, but at the urging of Bao, he held back. Instead, Wang Tian took on that responsibility.
Another month passed.
One night, when the moon had just turned full, Sunan and Bao were taking an evening stroll by the lake when they caught sight of a robed figure standing knee-deep in the waters of the lake, staring up at the moon. As they neared, it became obvious that it was a man, and yet, neither of them recognized him from behind, mostly because his head had been completely shaved.
When they were about ten meters away, the man looked over his shoulder at them.
“Sun Mai?” Sunan blurted. “Your hair…!”
Sun Mai looked back out at the lake. “Yes, I’ve parted ways with it.”
Bao and Sunan stopped at the edge of the water.
“Sun Mai, why are you out in the water?” Bao asked.
“I felt hot,” he replied. “And I haven’t spoken with the moon for some time now.” He turned and walked back to the shore. “I finished my scripture. Would you like to take a look?” He held out a bamboo scroll.
Sunan took it and began to unroll it.
As he did, Sun Mai said, “Mao Mei and I will start making copies in the morning.”
Sunan began to read the text by the moonlight. First his eyes narrowed, and then they widened as he realized that he could hardly understand any of it. However, the reason for that was not because it didn’t make sense, but because, it seemed incomprehensibly profound.
There were some passages that he remembered coming up in conversations with Sun Mai in the past.
Beliefs are just systems.
The beginning state is the perfect state.
Seek the truth and pursue the actual.
However, the elucidating texts that went along with the statements seemed stunningly deep.
For example, the section on “seek the truth and pursue the actual.”
Seek the truth and pursue the actual. Truth is the experience, the actual is the corporeal. Without the truth, does the actual exist? Without the actual, what is truth? The experience is perceived, the corporeal is experienced. Without being perceived, does the cosmos exist? Without the experience does the perception exist?
It went on like that for several more lines of text. Each aspect of the scripture made Sunan’s mind spin. Based on what he knew about Sun Mai, he had expected the scripture to be a random collection of sayings and thoughts, but even just glancing at a few parts of it, he could tell that the entire body of text was actually unified.
Bao was looking over his shoulder, and her eyes were just as wide as Sunan’s.
“You wrote this, Sun Mai?” she asked.
A slight smile appeared on Sun Mai’s face. “I did.”
Sunan took a deep breath. “Sun Mai, this is incredible. I… I don’t even understand it.”
Sun Mai looked out over the lake, his eyes glittering as if with starlight. “There are some parts which I know to be true, but have yet to fully grasp the meaning of. Please, take your time examining it, and give it Mao Mei when you’re finished. I haven’t slept for two months. I need to rest.” With that, he turned and left.
Sunan and Bao sat down by the lake to read the scripture, bathed by cascading moonlight.
The moon slowly crawled across the sky.
At one point, Bao shivered. “I never thought Sun Mai was serious when he said that the Perfect Realm doesn’t exist. But after reading this… it makes me wonder.”
**
Bao wasn’t the only one who began to wonder. In the following days, copies of the scripture were made, and slowly began to circulate through the camp. Most members of the Dragon Phoenix Sect were generally familiar with Sun Mai’s ideas and arguments, but this scripture was different. It was as if all of the rambling, disjointed things Sun Mai had said through the years had been run through a sieve, refined, reshaped, tempered, and forged into sword that stabbed directly into the heart of the Dehuan beliefs that most people in the empire held dear.
Of course, most members of the Dragon Phoenix Sect had come from lowly backgrounds. They were soldiers, ruffians, bandits, as well as many who had started out as commoners with a knack for using Qi. However, there was one person in the camp who was anything but ordinary when it came to the scholarly arts, and that was Du Qian.
Sun Mai had started out as nothing more than a poor street scholar who made barely made a living with his skills. In sharp contrast, Du Qian had risen up through the imperial exams until he occupied a position in the Demon Emperor’s court. He was a scholar among scholars, a man of learning and tradition who both firmly believed in the ancient Dehuan teachings, and could also explain and expound upon them. The Demon Emperor was responsible for many repugnant acts, but one thing he had left untouched were the traditions set forth by the famous philosopher Kong Zhi, which were the basis of the Dehua belief system.
At first, Du Qian refused to even look at the scripture, but as the discussions raged through the camp, he eventually gave in. When he finally sat down and began to read, his hands gripped the bamboo scroll tighter and tighter. His jaw clenched, and flames began to burn in his eyes.
“This is ridiculous!” he muttered angrily. “Heretical ravings!”
He had to suppress the urge to physically throw the scroll away.
Meanwhile, Sun Mai had slept for a week straight. Upon emerging, he shaved his head again, and then had a light breakfast of rice congee in the middle of the camp. Something about him seemed different. He seemed, calmer, more tranquil, even introspective.
As he was finishing his meal, Du Qian stalked up, holding a bamboo scroll in his hand.
“Scholar Sun!” he barked, looming to a stop over Sun Mai and holding the scroll out in front of him. “I demand that you renounce this trash immediately! If you don’t collect the copies and destroy them, I will!”
Sun Mai rose to his feet, a slight smile on his face. “Brother Du Qian, I’m sorry you don’t like my scripture. But I most certainly will not destroy it. In fact, there are more scriptures to come. This is only the first volume of thirteen.”
Du Qian snorted coldly. “Scholar Sun, there are so many erroneous aspects to this ‘scripture’ of yours that I could write an entire treatise about them! Look at this!” He jerked open the scroll, found a passage, and read it out loud. “If a text is not read, does it exist? The truth of a text is the experience, not the ink and the paper.” Du Qian threw his head back and laughed. “This is how children think! Literally! Cover your face with your hands, and a baby will think you’ve left the room. Reveal your face, and the baby rejoices upon your return. Laughable!”
Sun Mai’s smile never left his face. “Perhaps we could learn a thing or two from the simple minds of children, Brother Du Qian. My analogy of the written text explores the meaning of the deeper things in life. For examples, the Sayings of Kong Zhi. Without a person like you to read and understand the sage’s sayings, of what use are they? The world depends on us experiencing it. If none of us were here, would the cosmos exist? If it did exist without us, would it continue to run the same as it does now? What is the cosmos? What is reality?”
Du Qian shook his head. “Your words run in circles and go nowhere. Reality is reality. It exists beyond the shadow of a doubt. Look around you! Your presence doesn’t affect whether or not the sky is above us or the ground is beneath our feet!”
Sun Mai didn’t seem affected at all by Du Qian’s words. “Brother Du Qian, what I am questioning is the very nature of existence. As I’m sure even you would acknowledge, your existence is contingent upon your being conscious to experience it. If you went permanently unconscious, you would eventually cease to exist. Therefore, our conscious perception of the world around us is crucially important. Even more important is the fact that we can change reality! We can learn new things and invent new things.
“The Dragon-Phoenix sect is a perfect example. The Dragon and Phoenix Sovereigns Sunan and Bao imagined a new future, and then made it happen by founding a new sect. Another example is martial arts. New techniques are being created every day, things which never before existed! We lowly humans can change reality and the future! Is that not an amazing thing?”
Du Qian hesitated for a moment. “Fine. I’ll concede that humans can change the future. But that doesn’t mean a mere thought on our part can change reality. In your scripture, you essentially argue that the Perfect Realm is not real. That’s impossible! The world around us is a reflection of the Perfect Realm, and only by making that reflection as close as possible to the true Perfect Realm can we achieve peace and happiness. Even you reflect this thought in your statement that the beginning state is the perfect state. The divisions between the Realms are absolute, and must be maintained. By implying that there are no such divisions, or that there aren’t even any Realms to divide, you create the potential for catastrophe of a cosmic level!”
Sun Mai’s eyes glittered. “Brother Du Qian, I know that you believe in a non-metaphorical Perfect Realm that exists high above our heads in the sky. But how can you prove its existence? Have you been there?”
“I haven’t been there,” Du Qian replied, “but I’ve been to the Lower Realms! I’ve seen the demons and monsters that lurk beneath our feet. Powerful forces exist in the underworld, Sun Mai, and pretending they don’t exist won’t keep you safe.”
Sun Mai chuckled. “Brother Du Qian, I know full well what terrors exist beneath our feet. And that only goes to prove my own point. Does it really make sense that concrete evidence exists of the Lower Realms, and yet not a single shred of evidence can be found that the Perfect Realm exists above our heads?
“Darkness and evil spread in the world, and powerful Immortals and Gods look down and ignore us? If such all-powerful beings exist in the heavens, but ignore us mortals down here, how could you view them as being Perfect? Even you, a lowly mortal, would stoop to help an injured bird if you came across it, wouldn’t you? How then could those supposed Perfect Immortals in the heavens ignore our suffering down here? If, as you say, our world is a reflection of the Perfect Realm, then explain the Demon Emperor.”
“He… he…” Du Qian spluttered. It took him a moment to collect his thoughts. “He’s not from this world! He’s from--”
“Another Realm?” Sun Mai interjected. “Within the same cosmos, or a different cosmos?” He shook his head. “Brother Du Qian, I don’t claim to have all the answers to all the questions that exist. But I do believe that asking questions is the only way to determine the true nature of reality. I’m willing to hear more of your arguments regarding my scripture. Why don’t we go for a walk by the lake, and we can further this discussion?”
Du Qian suddenly seemed a bit calmer than before. Placing the scripture scroll into his sleeve, he nodded. “Very well. Let’s begin with your statement that beliefs are just systems. How do you reconcile that with what Kong Zhi said in the Rites of Wan Mei….”
--
Get behind-the-scenes info based on this chapter, plus material for you Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate session here at the Bedrock Blog! This is another installment that features information which will not be revealed in the narrative of the story, so don't miss it!
Chapter 63: A Debate
The cave temple on Zun Shan had water springs in it, and was the type of location that only an insane general would lead an army against. Everyone agreed that it would make the perfect headquarters for the sect. Work began immediately to renovate and adapt it into a suitable location to hold a large group of people like the Dragon-Phoenix Sect.
It was not work that could be accomplished overnight. At the absolute minimum, it would be many months before the work was complete.
After everyone returned to the camp near the south bank of Chrysanthemum Lake, Sun Mai went into seclusion.
“The time has come,” he said. “When I come out, my scripture will be complete.”
Over the course of the years which had passed, Sun Mai had stopped referring to his scripture as a “classic scripture.” Although few people noticed that, Sunan noticed.
While Sun Mai went into seclusion, life went on as usual in the Dragon-Phoenix Sect. The Eyes of the Phoenix continued to scout and explore the Banyan Region, focusing mostly on the areas to the east of Zun Shan and the camp. At the same time, work continued on the cave temple.
One month after Sun Mai went into seclusion, Wang Tian brought a report back to Sunan that clues had turned up regarding the Shan people. Sunan was of a mind to go investigate himself, but at the urging of Bao, he held back. Instead, Wang Tian took on that responsibility.
Another month passed.
One night, when the moon had just turned full, Sunan and Bao were taking an evening stroll by the lake when they caught sight of a robed figure standing knee-deep in the waters of the lake, staring up at the moon. As they neared, it became obvious that it was a man, and yet, neither of them recognized him from behind, mostly because his head had been completely shaved.
When they were about ten meters away, the man looked over his shoulder at them.
“Sun Mai?” Sunan blurted. “Your hair…!”
Sun Mai looked back out at the lake. “Yes, I’ve parted ways with it.”
Bao and Sunan stopped at the edge of the water.
“Sun Mai, why are you out in the water?” Bao asked.
“I felt hot,” he replied. “And I haven’t spoken with the moon for some time now.” He turned and walked back to the shore. “I finished my scripture. Would you like to take a look?” He held out a bamboo scroll.
Sunan took it and began to unroll it.
As he did, Sun Mai said, “Mao Mei and I will start making copies in the morning.”
Sunan began to read the text by the moonlight. First his eyes narrowed, and then they widened as he realized that he could hardly understand any of it. However, the reason for that was not because it didn’t make sense, but because, it seemed incomprehensibly profound.
There were some passages that he remembered coming up in conversations with Sun Mai in the past.
Beliefs are just systems.
The beginning state is the perfect state.
Seek the truth and pursue the actual.
However, the elucidating texts that went along with the statements seemed stunningly deep.
For example, the section on “seek the truth and pursue the actual.”
Seek the truth and pursue the actual. Truth is the experience, the actual is the corporeal. Without the truth, does the actual exist? Without the actual, what is truth? The experience is perceived, the corporeal is experienced. Without being perceived, does the cosmos exist? Without the experience does the perception exist?
It went on like that for several more lines of text. Each aspect of the scripture made Sunan’s mind spin. Based on what he knew about Sun Mai, he had expected the scripture to be a random collection of sayings and thoughts, but even just glancing at a few parts of it, he could tell that the entire body of text was actually unified.
Bao was looking over his shoulder, and her eyes were just as wide as Sunan’s.
“You wrote this, Sun Mai?” she asked.
A slight smile appeared on Sun Mai’s face. “I did.”
Sunan took a deep breath. “Sun Mai, this is incredible. I… I don’t even understand it.”
Sun Mai looked out over the lake, his eyes glittering as if with starlight. “There are some parts which I know to be true, but have yet to fully grasp the meaning of. Please, take your time examining it, and give it Mao Mei when you’re finished. I haven’t slept for two months. I need to rest.” With that, he turned and left.
Sunan and Bao sat down by the lake to read the scripture, bathed by cascading moonlight.
The moon slowly crawled across the sky.
At one point, Bao shivered. “I never thought Sun Mai was serious when he said that the Perfect Realm doesn’t exist. But after reading this… it makes me wonder.”
**
Bao wasn’t the only one who began to wonder. In the following days, copies of the scripture were made, and slowly began to circulate through the camp. Most members of the Dragon Phoenix Sect were generally familiar with Sun Mai’s ideas and arguments, but this scripture was different. It was as if all of the rambling, disjointed things Sun Mai had said through the years had been run through a sieve, refined, reshaped, tempered, and forged into sword that stabbed directly into the heart of the Dehuan beliefs that most people in the empire held dear.
Of course, most members of the Dragon Phoenix Sect had come from lowly backgrounds. They were soldiers, ruffians, bandits, as well as many who had started out as commoners with a knack for using Qi. However, there was one person in the camp who was anything but ordinary when it came to the scholarly arts, and that was Du Qian.
Sun Mai had started out as nothing more than a poor street scholar who made barely made a living with his skills. In sharp contrast, Du Qian had risen up through the imperial exams until he occupied a position in the Demon Emperor’s court. He was a scholar among scholars, a man of learning and tradition who both firmly believed in the ancient Dehuan teachings, and could also explain and expound upon them. The Demon Emperor was responsible for many repugnant acts, but one thing he had left untouched were the traditions set forth by the famous philosopher Kong Zhi, which were the basis of the Dehua belief system.
At first, Du Qian refused to even look at the scripture, but as the discussions raged through the camp, he eventually gave in. When he finally sat down and began to read, his hands gripped the bamboo scroll tighter and tighter. His jaw clenched, and flames began to burn in his eyes.
“This is ridiculous!” he muttered angrily. “Heretical ravings!”
He had to suppress the urge to physically throw the scroll away.
Meanwhile, Sun Mai had slept for a week straight. Upon emerging, he shaved his head again, and then had a light breakfast of rice congee in the middle of the camp. Something about him seemed different. He seemed, calmer, more tranquil, even introspective.
As he was finishing his meal, Du Qian stalked up, holding a bamboo scroll in his hand.
“Scholar Sun!” he barked, looming to a stop over Sun Mai and holding the scroll out in front of him. “I demand that you renounce this trash immediately! If you don’t collect the copies and destroy them, I will!”
Sun Mai rose to his feet, a slight smile on his face. “Brother Du Qian, I’m sorry you don’t like my scripture. But I most certainly will not destroy it. In fact, there are more scriptures to come. This is only the first volume of thirteen.”
Du Qian snorted coldly. “Scholar Sun, there are so many erroneous aspects to this ‘scripture’ of yours that I could write an entire treatise about them! Look at this!” He jerked open the scroll, found a passage, and read it out loud. “If a text is not read, does it exist? The truth of a text is the experience, not the ink and the paper.” Du Qian threw his head back and laughed. “This is how children think! Literally! Cover your face with your hands, and a baby will think you’ve left the room. Reveal your face, and the baby rejoices upon your return. Laughable!”
Sun Mai’s smile never left his face. “Perhaps we could learn a thing or two from the simple minds of children, Brother Du Qian. My analogy of the written text explores the meaning of the deeper things in life. For examples, the Sayings of Kong Zhi. Without a person like you to read and understand the sage’s sayings, of what use are they? The world depends on us experiencing it. If none of us were here, would the cosmos exist? If it did exist without us, would it continue to run the same as it does now? What is the cosmos? What is reality?”
Du Qian shook his head. “Your words run in circles and go nowhere. Reality is reality. It exists beyond the shadow of a doubt. Look around you! Your presence doesn’t affect whether or not the sky is above us or the ground is beneath our feet!”
Sun Mai didn’t seem affected at all by Du Qian’s words. “Brother Du Qian, what I am questioning is the very nature of existence. As I’m sure even you would acknowledge, your existence is contingent upon your being conscious to experience it. If you went permanently unconscious, you would eventually cease to exist. Therefore, our conscious perception of the world around us is crucially important. Even more important is the fact that we can change reality! We can learn new things and invent new things.
“The Dragon-Phoenix sect is a perfect example. The Dragon and Phoenix Sovereigns Sunan and Bao imagined a new future, and then made it happen by founding a new sect. Another example is martial arts. New techniques are being created every day, things which never before existed! We lowly humans can change reality and the future! Is that not an amazing thing?”
Du Qian hesitated for a moment. “Fine. I’ll concede that humans can change the future. But that doesn’t mean a mere thought on our part can change reality. In your scripture, you essentially argue that the Perfect Realm is not real. That’s impossible! The world around us is a reflection of the Perfect Realm, and only by making that reflection as close as possible to the true Perfect Realm can we achieve peace and happiness. Even you reflect this thought in your statement that the beginning state is the perfect state. The divisions between the Realms are absolute, and must be maintained. By implying that there are no such divisions, or that there aren’t even any Realms to divide, you create the potential for catastrophe of a cosmic level!”
Sun Mai’s eyes glittered. “Brother Du Qian, I know that you believe in a non-metaphorical Perfect Realm that exists high above our heads in the sky. But how can you prove its existence? Have you been there?”
“I haven’t been there,” Du Qian replied, “but I’ve been to the Lower Realms! I’ve seen the demons and monsters that lurk beneath our feet. Powerful forces exist in the underworld, Sun Mai, and pretending they don’t exist won’t keep you safe.”
Sun Mai chuckled. “Brother Du Qian, I know full well what terrors exist beneath our feet. And that only goes to prove my own point. Does it really make sense that concrete evidence exists of the Lower Realms, and yet not a single shred of evidence can be found that the Perfect Realm exists above our heads?
“Darkness and evil spread in the world, and powerful Immortals and Gods look down and ignore us? If such all-powerful beings exist in the heavens, but ignore us mortals down here, how could you view them as being Perfect? Even you, a lowly mortal, would stoop to help an injured bird if you came across it, wouldn’t you? How then could those supposed Perfect Immortals in the heavens ignore our suffering down here? If, as you say, our world is a reflection of the Perfect Realm, then explain the Demon Emperor.”
“He… he…” Du Qian spluttered. It took him a moment to collect his thoughts. “He’s not from this world! He’s from--”
“Another Realm?” Sun Mai interjected. “Within the same cosmos, or a different cosmos?” He shook his head. “Brother Du Qian, I don’t claim to have all the answers to all the questions that exist. But I do believe that asking questions is the only way to determine the true nature of reality. I’m willing to hear more of your arguments regarding my scripture. Why don’t we go for a walk by the lake, and we can further this discussion?”
Du Qian suddenly seemed a bit calmer than before. Placing the scripture scroll into his sleeve, he nodded. “Very well. Let’s begin with your statement that beliefs are just systems. How do you reconcile that with what Kong Zhi said in the Rites of Wan Mei….”
--
Get behind-the-scenes info based on this chapter, plus material for you Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate session here at the Bedrock Blog! This is another installment that features information which will not be revealed in the narrative of the story, so don't miss it!
